Richard Taylor:
I was talking with Professor Harry Kramer not so long ago, who talks about values-based leadership. And the first principle of his values-based leadership is self-reflection. How important is that kind of trust connection and reflection between you and the athletes?
Jess Corones:
Massive. Yeah. I'm a huge believer in self-reflection. I think it's the only way you can keep improving, and get better, is you need to understand yourself. And to do that, you need to reflect. And that's maybe, some of that performance mindset I've picked up off the athletes is like, "How do you get better? You have to reflect and look at your past behaviors or performances to go, 'Okay, well, how am I going to improve that for next time?'"
Richard Taylor:
And what's your tips for self-reflection?
Jess Corones:
I've actually got a journal now, a leadership journal.
Richard Taylor:
Yeah?
Jess Corones:
And I'll often, when I've done, it might be a meeting or it might be a one-on-one conversation. I might go and write down, "Ooh, you kind of let yourself, you got a little bit emotional in that meeting." But I don't write like paragraphs, it might be just little things that are like, "Hey, next time, maybe this is how you could do it differently." Or, "Think about this." But yeah, I find journaling quite good for that self-reflection.
Richard Taylor:
Yeah, that's your process, to be able to remove yourself from the situation, and try and get them-
Jess Corones:
Yeah, to be honest, actually thinking about it now. I don't actually go back and read the journal.
Richard Taylor:
Yeah, okay.
Jess Corones:
But I write it down in there. So I guess, maybe one day, I will go back and read it. But I think just the process of coming away from the meeting, or the interaction, or whatever it might be. And then me thinking about it as I go to write it, and then writing it down, is that process for me. Getting it out, I guess.
Richard Taylor:
Cathartic release, sort of like. Yeah.
Jess Corones:
Yeah, rather than probably just ignoring it, and moving on to the next thing. I think everyone's busy, and that's really easy to do. I've actually found, with online meetings now, another thing since COVID. That that's quite challenging, is because you can get booked up in meetings just like back to back to back, and you hang up from one meeting and you jump straight on the next one. Whereas, pre-COVID, when you were having more face-to-face meetings, you would have travel time in between. And then I think in that travel time, you would think about what you just did in that last meeting, "Oh, yeah, that went well," or, "I need to connect this person with that." And then you start to think about the preparation for the next meeting. "Okay, who am I talking to? What do we need to discuss? What do we want to get out of this meeting?"
Whereas now, with online meetings, being back to back, you just don't get that time. So something I try to do, maybe not as successfully as I'd like to do. But try and put a like 15-minute gap in between my online meetings, so that I've got a little bit of time to just-
Richard Taylor:
Yep. Break it up.
Jess Corones:
Yeah, yeah.
Richard Taylor:
And for leaders who are looking to get high performance out of their teams, what are some of the tools or practices that you believe they should adopt, given your experience?
Jess Corones:
Yeah, one of the things I was told early on in my leadership career was, I was struggling with the team I was working with. But I went to our CEO at the time. I said, "I'm really struggling to get them to move in one direction." And she said to me, "You've got to spend time with your people." And at the time, I was too busy doing my own work, and focusing on myself and my job, and what I needed to do. And I wasn't spending enough time with my team. And I think that's really critical.
I think in business, and in sport, it's all about unlocking human potential. And you just want to get the best out of your people. For them, as well, for their satisfaction you want to see them reach their potential and that's really rewarding. But in order to do that, you have to understand your people. You have to know your people, what motivates them, what does success look like to them? Because my idea on what success looks like to them, and what motivates them, might be actually completely different to what they see as success and what motivates them. So yeah, it's definitely about spending time with your people and getting to know them.
Richard Taylor:
You're so right. And we're in a fascinating point in history, maybe, without getting too grand about it. But we've got all of this technology evolving rapidly around us, that's optimizing people, and making us more productive. But still, the most important thing is people.
Jess Corones:
Yeah.
Richard Taylor:
Sort of cultivating. And also, when you're an individual contributor in a team or a business, to your point, you're kind of focused on your thing. When you become the leader, it's not about you doing your thing anymore. Your thing is the people, and making them better than you, or raising them up as much as you can.
Jess Corones:
Yeah, definitely. It was something that probably took me a little while, working in high performance sport, I was really driven and self-motivated for performance outcomes. And what we were doing, and how was I contributing to that? And so when I moved more into leadership, it was something I had to learn to kind of let go of my own, maybe ego, and help others. Get the most out of them. And it was understanding the impact that I could have, versus just myself doing something, versus the impact I could have on a wider system and much more people if I helped others lift up in their roles, was really important. But it was definitely a challenge, I think. It didn't come easy.
In high performance sport, when you are working directly with an athlete, sometimes you see outcomes quite quickly. When you're in leadership, sometimes it takes a little longer, or you've got to look a little bit harder to see the wins, because the small wins are the things that will combine to make the big win. But when you're in those leadership positions, maybe because you're not there at the coalface, or you're not there on the pool deck seeing it every day as much, you've got to look a little bit harder. And I think, look a bit harder, but also listen. Listen to where people are really, when they're telling you that they're proud of something, is really important. Because it's quite easy to just go, "Yeah, yeah, yeah," and walk off. But it's important to give time, and listen to them when they're telling you they're proud of something, and they've achieved something.
Richard Taylor:
On that self-reflection piece, if you could go back in your career now and give yourself one bit of advice on something you should have approached differently, or changed, what would that be?
Jess Corones:
I think just to be, maybe a little bit kinder to myself. I took the approach that I wasn't always the smartest sports scientist, but I'll be the hardest working. And so I felt that I had to probably give more time, and work harder than everyone else, but I probably didn't give myself enough credit for the knowledge and experience that I did have.
And asking for help, I think, is a big one. Yes, it's very cliche and a lot of people talk about being vulnerable, but asking questions. Ask as many questions as you can to those around you. And then, just listening and seeing and observing how other people do things. But I think, yeah, the big thing, I reckon if I could go back and ask myself, give myself a piece of advice. It'd be, "Be a little bit easier on yourself. But then, yeah. Ask for help.
Richard Taylor:
Yeah, I think it's really important as part of leadership, A, is that humility to realize that you don't know everything, because we don't know everything. And get the right people around you who do know those things that you don't know, but also the willingness to say, "I don't know the answer. And I need help, or I need someone to find me this bit of information, et cetera." Because most people are a bit worried about exposing themselves-
Jess Corones:
Totally.
Richard Taylor:
... but that vulnerability is really important as leader.
Jess Corones:
Especially, I think, when you're first coming into leadership. Like when you're a junior leader or a developing leader, you're like, "Ooh. I have to have all the answers." And so, I think as you get more comfortable in leadership, you become more comfortable in your own skin to say, "I don't know, but I'll go and find out," or, "We'll find a solution together, let's work through this." But definitely that's part of that transition, is learning to say, "I don't know, but we'll find it out. We'll work it out together."
Richard Taylor:
What's next for you and Swimming Australia?
Jess Corones:
Well, the LA Olympics in 2028.
Richard Taylor:
Just around the corner.
Jess Corones:
Just around the corner. And then we've got a home Olympics in Brisbane, in 2032. But yeah, for me, it's about just continuing to grow the team. And when I talk about grow the team, it's growth in every area. Grow the team as people. We often have young athletes coming onto the team, and we've got a bunch of new young coaches coming through, and performance staff, so helping them grow and reach their potential.
And then, yeah, it's about exposing Swimming Australia. To inspire Australia through swimming.
Because there are so many different ways that you can do that, and swimming is such a fantastic sport. And we're so lucky, in Australia, they say swimming's in our DNA. So to work for the national team, in Australia, that's in our whole country's DNA, is absolutely amazing. And I think it's just about getting out into the communities, and sharing that message, and just continuing to help the athletes and the coaches be the best that they can be. And these kids, when they come into the high performance system, they're just kids. And they have these amazing dreams, and you just want to help them reach that potential. And there's absolutely nothing better than seeing it when they achieve their dream. It's the most unbelievable thing, to see them touch that wall and win that Olympic gold medal. And it doesn't happen for everyone, but when it does, all the hard work's paid off and you're just so happy for them.
Richard Taylor:
Yeah. Fantastic. Well, I wish them and you all the success for the upcoming Olympics, and I hope many more gold medals to come. Although you're focusing on the process, of course.
Jess Corones:
Process.
Richard Taylor:
Process.
Jess Corones:
Thanks, Richard.
Richard Taylor:
But still, all the best, and thank you so much for joining us.
Jess Corones:
No, thank you. Thanks for having me.
Richard Taylor:
Thanks. Cheers, Jess.